Klingy
Cadet
Percier@Outland
Posts: 27
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Post by Klingy on Apr 2, 2013 4:22:07 GMT -5
I think I will test this also in lower level dummies in Undercity.... I'm thinking maybe after level 30 it's better to use slow/strong main with fast offhand, but I believe that at some point 2 daggers might turn better, just because poison damage scales with your level, and grey/white weapons scale much,much worst. I'm still a long way to test and confirm this though... wowhead info: Strongest grey/white slow weapon is a vendor Axe with 48.8DPS and speed of 3.00 for levels 75 and above (http://www.wowhead.com/item=41752) Highest DPS weapons are all daggers (for levels 70-79) and drop (I think in instances only and very high level areas world drops) or fishing daily reward with 74.3-147.3DPS and speed 1.60(!)-2.00 Best vendor dagger has 45.9 DPS and speed 1.80 for levels 70 and above (http://www.wowhead.com/item=44652) So probably that vendor axe main-hand and the vendor dagger in offhand is what probably most will be using, unless 2 of those daggers turn out to do more damage considering the poison scaling. And if you get any of the other best daggers (either in AH or some very lucky drop, since we can't do instances, mmm thinking about it, we just can't kill bosses right, and mobs in scarlet monastery and scholomance might be doable on level 70?) just use them, because they have higher damage anyway....
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Klingy
Cadet
Percier@Outland
Posts: 27
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Post by Klingy on Apr 2, 2013 5:12:47 GMT -5
Also, small tip: as a rogue I sometimes go behind enemy lines, it's just faster and not always unsafe. I find very useful to change how camera works. Just go to <Interface> options --» <Camera> and change the <Camera Following Style> to <Never Adjust Camera>. It's very usefull to look around with the left button when fighting and out of sealth. Since I usually use both mouse buttons or <W> key with right mouse button to turn, it never becomes a bad setting.
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Post by irontia on Apr 2, 2013 5:21:07 GMT -5
Ah, I've taken all my movement keys off the keyboard and just use the mouse. And I was taken to 71 health by the Lone Hunter by being too cocky. 9000k mob when my health is 2500? No probs!
I just had a look at Elitist Jerks for poison infos and there's an attack power formula. Poisons scale with attack power and as ours is awful the scaling at higher levels I suspect will be not good.
There are also three slow main hand panda grey drops and a dagger; I can recall vendoring these multiple times while leveling through pandaland so they may pop up in the auction house from time to time. Level 79 weapons, 200ilevel ish from memory.
That's a long way away though and if I die again I just might go write that novel I've been putting off...
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Post by irontia on Apr 10, 2013 21:46:20 GMT -5
Currently level 63 and gingerly picking off mobs in hellfire... god I hate that Fel Reaver noise... I've rechecked the damage I'm doing with two Bone Maces and white damage is up around 12-15% depending on the fight. At approx 350-400 dps it's taking around 20 secs to down mobs and they're usually taking me down to half health (some of my armor is quite crappy though, even for ironman. Feathermoon doesn't have much in the AH, unfortunately). I was trying really hard not to eat any food for the entire challenge but I think I may have to start doing it regularly I don't bother on my other rogues, just use recup to top up but these fights need every ounce of dps to keep them as short as possible. Anyway, putting a point into SnD for 12 secs at the start of a fight, using up a combo point and a finisher worth of energy, is still not quite worth it dps wise even if it gives some instant poison damage. It's getting closer to being viable though, and if I get a few levels higher I will report back with another dps check. At lower levels SnD is terrible and shouldn't be an option at all.
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Post by Lyssan on Jun 30, 2013 1:44:37 GMT -5
My rogue is now 74 and, after level 60, I am using a fairly constant routine in taking down mobs. Until level 62 my method was to wear down the mobs by keeping Recuperate up most of the time: opening with Ambush, Recuperate for 2 combo points, SS, SnD and then alternating Eviscerate and Recuperate as finishers. Outlands and later Northrend mobs damage is much greater than what Recuperate can do, so I had to change my opening sequence to "burn" the enemies fast: Cheap shot which provides 4 seconds of free DPS and 2 CP, 3xExpose Armor (low energy cost - combo builder), 5 combo Eviscerate (which grants 25 energy), SS, Recuperate or Eviscerate depending on how much life the mob still has. This seems to work for me so far, although it's not the safest way - luckily rogues have a lot of defensive tools as well. For bosses I'm using the same sequence along with Evasion, Dismantle and sometime Vanish :-) I haven't tried any hit and run strategies yet but I'm sure I will need to in the 80+ zones - if I make it that far.
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Post by irontia on Jul 16, 2013 8:42:47 GMT -5
That actually seems a pretty safe and good rotation, but I do like my opener of CS, 2xSS, running, turning at 65 energy and throwing - not getting melee hits on our light armor is always a good thing. White damage is terrible for ironmen (per my previous testing which surprised even me) so there's no real dps loss from not standing next to them when you have no energy. Whereas throw is completely free dps with no energy cost, and if crippling poison works they take ages to reach you.
I'd still use Sinister Strike rather than expose armor - true, the energy cost is lower but there's no dps, and ss has the chance to crit. Cheap shot and running away allows you to build all your energy back up while hitting throw - mobs can be at half health and you at full health and energy with a dot still ticking on them. If you need more breathing space, put those combo points into a kidney shot and run again. Throw is a fabulous ability now you can use it every .5 of a second. If it's a caster on the other end, you can often take them down just by hitting throw and using the opening points in recuperate. If their casts seem to be a bit too damaging then kick is always your friend (I have mine bound to wheel up so as soon as I see a cast I just flick it without thinking).
Also sap seems to be an unmentioned ability. It's brilliant and should be used on anything in the way. I use it when deciding which mob to take out next; you can always change your mind and put it on the next patrol. Works on all the commonest types of mobs.
Finally, even in Ironman, it's worth keeping in mind that rogues are designed to be a pure dps class, melee in light armor, the fastest and best dps there is (I'm not biased!). Kill as quickly as possible without letting them touch you.
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Post by iarnaig on Feb 16, 2014 19:00:04 GMT -5
Mighty interesting thread here, think most of it predates the Sinister Strike to 50 energy change though, which makes using that for combo points reaaallly painful. At 42, my rotation is: Cheap Shot, then 3x Expose Armor, 5-pt Eviscerate, then however many Sinister Strikes it takes the mob to die (sometimes I'll throw in an Expose Armor if the mob will die before I get 50 energy and I want more Recuperate time), and then Recuperate with whatever I've got in the way of points, which will top me off by the time I start the next mob. Finding I don't have to stop and eat/bandage much since I started doing it this way, although the mobs are very green, so I expect it to get tougher. Against mobs where I can't open from stealth (triggered through quest items etc), I use Expose Armor x2, Slice and Dice, Expose Armor, Sinister Strike 2-3 times, Recuperate. I tend to find it takes too long to build up combo points for Eviscerate this way, and Slice and Dice is more effective for me - something must have changed since Irontia's research earlier, as white melee is doing more like 40% of my dmg (using Slice and Dice) than the 1.5% mentioned! (Actually, the lvl 60 target dummies might be connected to that result ). Not looking forward to higher levels too much, i suspect it'll get a whole lot tougher and my nice simple rotation will get a lot more complex, and involve some of the running away tactics mentioned earlier in the thread! How I wish Leeching Poison wasn't a talent
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Post by irontia on May 17, 2014 22:03:02 GMT -5
Oh lol, I'll have to do more testing now...
It's a nasty trade off, the increased SS damage versus slower combo point building. It was meant to solve the energy capping button mashing at max level in Combat spec but it does suck as an ironman. My theory is I'd still go for it over expose armor just because it has a chance to crit and the damage is clearly better than before. It actually makes the running away tactic more powerful too. But, expose armor will of course reduce a mob's armor and allow white damage to be higher, and thus the benefit from Slice n Dice to be better, plus being a lot cheaper energy wise.
Ok, I'll test all the parameters I can think of, and look at the recount percentages on actual fights, using various rotations as I go. Will report back.
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Post by umabbas on Jan 22, 2015 0:47:07 GMT -5
Since WoD removed hit and expertise, how come I miss 60% of my white hits still?
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Post by iarnaig on Jan 22, 2015 8:55:33 GMT -5
Offhand hits still miss, they've always had a 25% (or similar) missrate, and that was retained with the hitrating removal. I am so glad about the removal of mainhand misschance though, there's nothing more annoying than wasting some useful ability on a miss! If you're seeing more misses than that, are you by any chance attacking a target dummy higher lvl than yourself? Level-based misschance is still a thing; anything over 3 lvls higher than you are will have an increased missrate
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Post by umabbas on Jan 22, 2015 9:55:24 GMT -5
Nop, just mobs, equal and no lower level usually. I can see three, four misses in a row, which is odd (off hand hits max twice in a row?) It's still annoying, the stat squish kinda made it necessary for things to die asap already past 10, using my combo points on Slice and Dice and Recup only now... it's easier on a priest of similar level, just 3x as long.
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Post by zeepsneeft on Mar 13, 2016 12:58:22 GMT -5
Im currenly playing an iron undead rogue and am doing pretty well. Just made it up to level 34 and got vanish! First char died at level 20 due to an overpowered quest mob and second at 10 but now im taking it very slow and being very carefull. Doing much more research has payed off for me so far. But im looking for some general advice to make it as easy as possible. I have a few question and it would be great if an experienced rogue can help me:
1 - Im currently leveling in Strangethorn and I think i will go to WPL after this. Are there any zones that are more friendly than others? Some to really avoid?
2 - I currently still use Deadly + Crippling. Wounding poison seemed to give less damage but might be worth it on some mobs that heal? And in this thread I read stuff like double deadly poison - how do I do that? (first time rogue player)
3 - How to use distract succesfully? Just to delay patrols or are there more uses?
4 - I read about gauge here but I never get more than a very small CC time because of poisons breaking it. Not really allowing any bandage time. Am I missing something?
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Xaya
Community Moderators
Posts: 1,663
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Post by Xaya on Mar 13, 2016 18:15:32 GMT -5
Im currenly playing an iron undead rogue and am doing pretty well. Just made it up to level 34 and got vanish! First char died at level 20 due to an overpowered quest mob and second at 10 but now im taking it very slow and being very carefull. Doing much more research has payed off for me so far. But im looking for some general advice to make it as easy as possible. I have a few question and it would be great if an experienced rogue can help me: 1 - Im currently leveling in Strangethorn and I think i will go to WPL after this. Are there any zones that are more friendly than others? Some to really avoid? 2 - I currently still use Deadly + Crippling. Wounding poison seemed to give less damage but might be worth it on some mobs that heal? And in this thread I read stuff like double deadly poison - how do I do that? (first time rogue player) 3 - How to use distract succesfully? Just to delay patrols or are there more uses? 4 - I read about gauge here but I never get more than a very small CC time because of poisons breaking it. Not really allowing any bandage time. Am I missing something? I am not an expert on iron rogues (my last got killed at 62 in WoD) but here goes my advice - I almost only play alliance so can't really help you on where to quest.
- I always use Deadly and crippling. Healing mobs are fewer than those who run away
- I never used distract so far (even on my rogue that died at 67 in MoP). Could be useful to get past higher lvl mobs, but you don't want to get near those...
- I never used gauge either, but as a night elf I have Shadow Meld. Could give you a running start when you try to run away
Xayaforsi lvl 100 pandaren hunter (alive) Wyrmrest Accord Xayamonk lvl 36 night elf rogue(alive) Wyrmrest Accord Xayablood lvl 40 bloodthirsty night elf monk(alive) Wyrmrest Accord Xayahorde lvl 12 bloodelf rogue (alive) Wyrmrest Accord Xayapaci lvl 24 pacifist rogue gnome (alive) Wyrmrest Accord
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Post by brittleiron on Mar 13, 2016 18:59:56 GMT -5
Gouge also makes a nice second spell interrupt to go with kick. Bring on the casters!
Double deadly poison was an old rogue thing from when each weapon could have separate poisons and can't be done anymore.
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Post by iarnaig on Mar 13, 2016 21:24:32 GMT -5
1. WPL is good, don't go to EPL after it though, until you are WAY over lvl; that zone is overtuned, mobs have way higher health than those in other zones of the same lvl, and hit harder too. 2 (and 4) - I personally would not use deadly poison, because it prevents you from using gouge or blind to get a bandage in, which could be a lifesaver; I'd use wound and crippling, which does less damage, but is safer if you might need a bandage. Perhaps if poison is a really big part of your damage it's worth sticking with deadly, I've not played rogue this expansion so don't know how the damage compares right now, but I certainly prefer the safety net of having crowd control options (sometimes even just gouging to get 1 combo point and let some energy regen before a finisher without taking more damage is nice!) 3 - I generally just use distract to make sure the mob's facing away from me before I pickpocket/sap it, could be handy with careful use for separating patrols, though, or just stopping them aggroing on you if you're midfight with something else. Other tips: stun everything, stuns are great! Try not to go into fights with vanish on cd (unless you're a night elf, since they have shadowmeld too), it's your lifesaver if things go wrong - if you want to vanish with a dot on you, run away to a safe spot first, else you'll get aggro again when the dot breaks your stealth
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