Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 8:20:14 GMT -5
With the recent Legion news announced last week, I wanted to get some feedback on some changes for the challenge.
Demon Hunters: As it stands now, the thought is they will start at Level 95. Even if the character dons white gear as per the rules, I think 95 is WAY too close to 110 for this class to even be considered.
Death Knights: - Currently, I have DKs green-flagged, but I was going to revert pre-stat squish back to yellow flag as per the previous version of the rules. - Going forward with post-stat squish DKs, I would continue to green flag, despite starting at 55 as the starting zone is extremely difficult to exit (nigh impossible) using iron man rules.
We'll be discussing these items on our podcast at the end of the month.
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Post by iarnaig on Aug 12, 2015 8:47:42 GMT -5
Seems fair, yep. So many have reached 60+ as normal ironmen these days that DK starting at 55 doesn't put them that far ahead of classes starting at 1 (except maybe poor old warriors who can't even get that high any more), although I'm happy with yellow flag for all DKs rather than making it inconsistent with some having it and others not. Demon Hunters, yes, so few have even reached 95 at all yet that I think that's way too high. Can always be reconsidered in a few expansions' time when max lvl is 130+ and loads of us have passed 100
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Post by Ironworgen on Aug 12, 2015 15:42:04 GMT -5
I made these arguments before when discussing Death Knights, so I'll make them again now regarding Demon Hunters as I don't see any difference based on what I am aware of so far.
When I first leveled a Death Knight as an Iron character and got out of the starting zone, many people thought it should be excluded from the Ironman for a reason that I still do not understand.
Everyone knows what level a Death Knight or Demon Hunter starts at, so I don't understand why people think that, for some reason, it isn't a legitimate challenge to play those classes as an Iron character.
Is getting to 100 as a Demon Hunter, or 60 as a Death Knight, the same as reaching those levels as another class? No, but everyone knows that those classes get a head start as far as leveling, so why should they be excluded?
Is it too easy to level a Demon Hunter as an Ironman? Maybe, at this point we don't know, but so what. Should a hunter be excluded from the Ironman since everyone considers that to be the easiest class? Certainly easier than a Warrior. But so what. If someone wants to experience playing a Hunter as an Iron character, the only way to do that is to play a Hunter. Likewise, the only way to experience playing a Demon Hunter or a Death Knight, is to play a Demon Hunter or a Death Knight. Are they easier than other classes? Maybe, maybe not, but ease of leveling shouldn't have anything to do with it. The only way to experience playing a class is to play that class. Even if a class is easier, it is still a unique challenge.
Every class is different, and there is no reason to exclude them from the Iron challenge because of the level they start at.
Attached an asterisk if you like, but everyone knows what level each class starts. If someone gets a Death Knight to level 60, everyone knows that it isn't comparable to other classes since they start at 55, but that doesn't make the challenge any less deserving of being attempted.
I don't see any reason to exclude any class from the Iron challenge.
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Post by iarnaig on Aug 12, 2015 17:09:06 GMT -5
The main difference I see between DKs and DHs is the scale of the advantage gained. At the time this challenge began, max lvl was 85, 30 lvls higher than DKs start at, and by the time anyone really tried a DK we were into MoP and max lvl was 35 lvls higher, while tons of people had already reached 60+ already. Not such a bad thing to allow them, I appreciate the arguments about the late starting, so I'm fine with yellow flags for that, but certainly no reason to exclude them entirely.
Demon Hunters on the other hand, will start a maximum of 15 lvls below max lvl (it hasn't even been confirmed as 95 yet, it could be 98 or even 100). And right now, only seven players at all have got to 95+. Allowing a class to start at a lvl which so few people have reached, is another question entirely. I would perhaps suggest that, if anyone wants to try, they could be given a red flag, but allowed to register on the list (I believe the site currently doesn't allow red flags to even register, which is great!), so they can be seen on the site and people can see they are following the other rules, but the red flag will be appropriate for the advantage given (or hey, add an orange flag, but that starts getting complicated with too many flags). Being an advocate of DKs, I can see it'd be harsh to 100% ban DHs, but I do feel the two cases are some distance apart on the scale of what's acceptable.
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Xaya
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Post by Xaya on Aug 12, 2015 20:06:54 GMT -5
The classes that start at higher lvl have pretty rough starting areas. An iron demon hunter starting at 95 would have to start naked, and it would be pretty hard in Draenor; Xayaforsi started Draenor at 93, and it was very rough, so I'm not even sure a class starting at that lvl will be able to survive. Unless it is overpowered, or that gear doesn't have any effect on the class (I don't expect Blizz to do that). Once the starting area is cleared, and iron gear acquired, then it is up to the player to do his/her best.
I noted the time played on Xayaforsi to reach lvl 90, and lvl 100. For lvl 90, the max at the time, it is about 8 days play time or 192 hours. For lvl 100, it is 11 days, or more than 264 hours. It is a good amount of time, in which many things can happend : dc, bad pulls, bad decison about how to take a fight, a few crits by mobs or misses by the toon, you name it; all of which can mean death for the toon. Since WoD came out, I think only Jernmand has even got above 90 with a toon started after the expansion (my highest was a lvl 78 hunter). So having a toon that can start above 90 seems a little unfair. Any single quest or mob has some amount of risk; the more quest you do, or the longer you play for grinders and pacifists, the more chances you get of something going wrong or making a bad decision.
I've been trying to get above 90 with a new toon since Xayaforsi got to 100 (december 20th, 2014). If I create a toon lvl 95, register it, and never play with it, it would probably stay in the top 20 list forever, which would be quite frustrating for all players with other classes, because the other classes have a lot to go through to even reach it.
So while I think they should be allowed to do the challenge, I surely wouldn't like it if they all showed at the top of the list just by creating a toon and register...
Xayaforsi lvl 100 pandaren hunter (alive) Wyrmrest Accord Xayamonk lvl 25 night elf monk (alive) Wyrmrest Accord
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Post by marston on Aug 15, 2015 6:30:23 GMT -5
I think before outright banning Demon Hunters you shoulkd first take a look at the starting zone. It might be around the same difficulty or maybe even harder than the DK starting zone. Just let people play them if they want and if they actually manage to leave the starting zone.
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Post by 'Ster on Aug 15, 2015 10:51:32 GMT -5
Hmmmm, some decent points and counter-points. My perspective is not from the starting level and the difficulty... it's the time, patience, learning, re-rolls, and experience those fun low level zones that are a pain - like STV (dislike the Nestingway quests). If you start at a level skipping all those grinds and climbs to 60, you're missing out on an element of ironman - to start at 1 and climb to the top. So few make it to 60, not because it hard, but because it takes a lot of other factors, patience, change in play style, death by rares, etc.
In the Wizard of Oz, even Dorothy had to start at the beginning of the yellow brick road, no shortcuts....
:-)
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ash
Iron Veterans
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Post by ash on Aug 16, 2015 8:24:34 GMT -5
Agree with Deadster here. Even thought getting out of the advanced starting zone is an epic feat, getting from lvl 1 to lvl 100 alive is even more epic. The chance for some in game glitch, DC, stupid move, etc., to kill your iron gets exponential over time. The shorter that length of play time is the less chance for those types of deaths to occur. Just my $.02 but I'll be sticking to the original ironman rules.
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Post by Broken Fox on Aug 16, 2015 18:08:40 GMT -5
Why not just make a separate list for Demon Hunters?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 19:25:01 GMT -5
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Post by Broken Fox on Aug 16, 2015 21:40:43 GMT -5
Right but I mean separate them from the main Iron list completely
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Post by Ironworgen on Aug 16, 2015 23:48:00 GMT -5
Seems there is a concern about including Demon Hunters on the same list as other classes and people thinking that a level 95 Demon Hunter deserves as much respect as other level 95s. A separate list entirely would appear to alleviate those worries.
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Post by iarnaig on Aug 17, 2015 9:08:45 GMT -5
I'm liking the idea of a separate list as well; maybe in a few expansions' time when it's less advantage they could be merged together, else always kept separate, we can see how it goes. But certainly for now, it seems a good way to go, this way people who want to try a DH and see if they can get out of the start zone can do so, but they won't end up right at the top of the overall list just by logging in once
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ash
Iron Veterans
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Post by ash on Aug 17, 2015 17:44:40 GMT -5
Until that expansion comes out in the future I'd say we wait until we can see how hard the starter zone is for a Demon Hunter. I've got a reg DK and it was no pick nick even with the blue gear you pick up. Haven't even tried it on an iron DK.
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