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Post by Ironworgen on May 29, 2015 23:49:34 GMT -5
Created a poll to see what people's thoughts are. Been thinking about playing again and what character I should try. Love my druid, which I think is one of the best classes, but I've played that so many times and maybe it's time for a new experience. Was thinking about what would really be a challenge so I complied a list of the highest level reached for each class below (living/honored dead) from wowchallenges.com (don't have any data from the old site). Class | Living | Dead | WoD | | Death Knight* | 90 | 56 | 55 | 56 | Druid | 100 | 88 | 37 | 23 | Hunter | 100 | 90 | 97 | 71 | Mage | 85 | 16 | 29 | 15 | Monk | 90 | 69 | 51 | 69 | Paladin | 89 | 54 | 41 | 40 | Priest | 100 | 100 | 31 | 22 | Rogue | 63 | 95 | 63 | 60 | Shaman | 45 | 67 | 37 | 16 | Warlock | 87 | 90 | 36 | 41 | Warrior | 60 | 90 | 19 | 25 |
These numbers may not accurately reflect the current situation, but it's a start, and all we have to go on. Warriors and Rogues have always been tough, and for some reason Shamans have never been popular, and recently Paladins seem so have suffered. Not a fan of melee characters, and never liked playing a shaman (although the iron version might be different) The recent talk about pet-less hunters has gotten me curious and I've been thinking about a minionless Warlock. So what are everyone's thoughts?
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Post by Broken Fox on May 30, 2015 1:07:11 GMT -5
You'd need the patience of concrete to play Warrior.
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Post by brittleiron on May 30, 2015 5:52:19 GMT -5
Warrior is the most difficult hands down.... and no legit warrior ever hit 90. If I recall the best attempts were 79, 73 and myself at 70 and that was way back in the early Cata era before an endless series of Ironman nerfs were suffered by the class in every expansion/major patch since then. For example my best warrior in Mists was 45 if I recall and Warlords further weakened the class since then for Ironman.
Rogues and priests have actually gotten easier than they were back in the Cata days, but most other classes have suffered some degree of nerfs just not to the extent that warriors and paladins have (paladins lost any effective heals outside word of glory).
Shaman is rough partly due to a smaller than normal mana pool for a "caster" because they don't get the increased mana pool of a true caster unless you pick elemental/resto spec... add to that only one heal that is fast casting but very NOT mana efficient and they go OOM easily. However the mana pool also refills faster than a standard caster.
Petless Warlock I can't see as even being viable as the shadow bolt/corruption damage isn't great (and shadow bolt is getting a nerf currently on the PTR)... fear kiting MIGHT work but i'm pretty sure it would hit a wall as a play method rather quickly.
Additionally it should be pointed out that many of the high water marks for some "living" characters are old no longer played characters that were started in prior expansions... if you click on the WoD icon to sort only by that expansion you'll come to better see how difficult some of the classes have become.
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Post by iarnaig on May 30, 2015 7:31:19 GMT -5
I see 3 options are allowed but I'd find it hard to pick between 4 so went with the obvious one: warriors, which have never been easy at any point. Petless warlock indeed sounds near impossible, doubt it'd get much past lvl 20 tbh, while shaman and mage also are not at all easy; I suspect neither has really got anywhere above lvl 50 since Cata. Expansion changes have made such a difference, it's really hard to see where most classes actually are now, as most living high lvl ironmen are older ones, so even those who made it from 90-100 (which takes a lot of skill, I'm sure!), we don't know how they'd do in the 1-90 range yet, perhaps they have some tough lvl ranges. About the only class we know is still fine for levelling right from the start is hunter, and well, nothing's changed there
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Post by Ironworgen on May 30, 2015 11:02:14 GMT -5
Updated the stats (and the formatting) to include WoD specific information.
Appears the top three (bottom three?) are:
Warrior - 25 (19/25) Mage - 29 (29/15) Priest - 31 (31/22)
No stats for a pet less hunter, although sounds as if that isn't too difficult.
The consensus seems pretty clear that Warrior is the biggest challenge, although my first character was a Warrior and taught me that I hate melee classes (although that just makes it more of a challenge).
I'm really intrigued by the minionless Warlock idea and appears that is thought impossible so the gauntlet has been thrown!
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Post by Ironworgen on Jun 19, 2015 13:45:43 GMT -5
Based on wowchallenges.com, I have come up with some more stats. Using the Iron, Dead, and Nether lists for WoD characters, I looked to see the second highest level attained for each class. Idea being, the highest level for a class may have been a fluke, or by one superstar player, but the second highest might be a better representation of how the masses perform. Unlikely that there would be two flukes or superstars. My opinion based on these numbers is that Druid, Hunter, Paladin, Rogue, Warlock, and Monk have no difficulty leveling. This isn't saying that they can attain max level, but they certainly aren't one of the more difficult classes to play. The consensus seems to be that a Petless Hunter is a viable option, and while not as effective as a Hunter with a pet, they are not as limited as some other classes. My personal experience with a Minionless Warlock is that they are playable as well, and not as underpowered as I expected. Not a lot of data for Death Knights, nothing above 56, which I suspect is because people are not playing the class, not because it is not viable. People did have success pre-Wod so not sure of their current state. That leaves four classes with second highest level attained from the Iron/ Dead/ Nether lists: Class | Iron | Dead | Nether | Mage | 25 | 15 | 16 | Priest | 32 | 22 | 25 | Shaman | 20 | 23 | 23 | Warrior | 22 | 22 | 25 |
Appears like Mage has had the least amount of success of all the classes, followed by ShamanWarrior which look to have very comparable numbers, and finally Priest as the only class with level 30+, compared to 25- for the others Which surprises me a bit since Shaman and Priest have no votes in the poll.
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Post by brittleiron on Jun 21, 2015 17:11:38 GMT -5
My best WoD shaman died at 35 but I had never added that one to the site.
One thing to remember about the difficulty level is that even for classes that can struggle along by just sticking to barely green and gray quests... they are unable to do that once they hit a new tier of content. It used to be possible to enter Outlands at over 63 if you milked the old world zones for every drop of exp... now with the reduced exp for old content I can't imagine you managing much more than 61. Because of this many classes that can "get by" will find themselves suddenly forced to do yellow quests when they have been leveling using green/gray ones. This can add to the difficulty until they adjust to it.
Judging the difficulty level of classes based on their performance below level 25'ish is kind of meaningless in my opinion... every class is capable of reaching the 20-30 range without dying if played carefully (some even if played recklessly). Before level 20 characters get boosted mana/rage/energy regeneration and heal back to full after mere seconds out of combat. After this point for some classesthe wheels come off and leveling becomes a brutally slow painful process... other classes barely feel a change and can keep crusing right along. Some classes manages just fine because they keep a lot of their core abilities (rogue) giving them more tools to work with. Other classes like mage (reduced to spamming frostbolts) or warrior (reduced to spamming heroic strike) end up just being handicapped by lack of tools to use.... and yes I know they both get other useful abilities but to a far lesser degree than some other classes. Also keep in mind most caster classes suffer the same trouble as they level through the first 20 levels... the cast time of their primary damage dealing ability gets progressively longer. Genrally 1.5s at lvl 1 to 2.5s at lvl 20 or some such thing causing it to take more time to kill a monster thus increasing time you take damage (which is a bad thing as you get higher in level).
I also once again can't say enough about the value of Shadowmeld... look at the top Ironman challengers and you will see they are nearly all night elves, and of the 100's they all are except one hunter (a class that gets its own personal "oh shit" button). There is so much value in having that Shadowmeld button for the eventual moment when you make a mistake... whether it be an add spawning on you low in life, over committing to a fight you maybe shouldn't have, hitting a bugged quest or simply learning a quest objective isn't viable in Ironman. Of course the Shadowmeld button can become a two edged sword. I have often found myself abusing it just to drop aggro to save time questing (which has led to a death a few times that could have been avoided had I saved its usage).
Shamans have no emergency button other Earthbind totem to hopefully snare them while you run away... plus no night elf for shadowmeld. Oh they also have a reduced mana pool compared to most casters.
Warlock can't be night elves either... but have more options for escaping a bad situation.
Mages just suffer the standard caster issues of being squishy with the added benefit of no heals (priest/shaman/druid/warlock) or no pet (warlock)... frost nova and blink can only take you so far and require a lot of of patience/skill. But at least you get shadowmeld... down time for mana drinks gets old too.
Priests are actually pretty viable it seems to me, but I just think it isn't a very popular class in general is part of the issue.
The lack of Death knights is just the fact that if you don't cheat the very beginning quests are a huge pain basically gearless and most Ironman characters at least get to start off easy... plus starting at 55 just feels against the idea of the challenge to most folks.
OK, enough random streams of thought for now....
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Post by iarnaig on Jun 21, 2015 17:29:07 GMT -5
One thing to remember about the difficulty level is that even for classes that can struggle along by just sticking to barely green and gray quests... they are unable to do that once they hit a new tier of content. It used to be possible to enter Outlands at over 63 if you milked the old world zones for every drop of exp... now with the reduced exp for old content I can't imagine you managing much more than 61. Because of this many classes that can "get by" will find themselves suddenly forced to do yellow quests when they have been leveling using green/gray ones. This can add to the difficulty until they adjust to it. Very very true, my recently dead warlock was only 61.7 when I had to go to Outland, I used to reach 63. I actually hadn't thought much had changed since I levelled my DK (who was 63 entering Outland), as the reduced exp from kills was already there then, but it must have changed as I didn't even make 62 this time. Also, I found it impossible to get much ahead again - past times through, I got 4-5 lvls ahead by the time I was done with HFP/Zangarmarsh, this time at best I was 4 lvls ahead but I'd run out of quests by then and had to go to Terokkar (which was where I died) and fight mobs only 2 lvls below me again. I suspect the Northrend range may be less painful, as Outland has dailies which you can grind for a lvl or two if needs be (quests give ok exp if you're over lvl, it's kills that are totally useless), but surviving Outland is not easy. I'm rather annoyed with my timing, as dying so soon before the midsummer fire festival means I won't make it to Outland in time to make use of the holiday quests to give me an extra lvl or two; at least it'll help me past the EPL lvl range, I guess... Yeah... well, not so sure nowadays, my "oh crap" button is my doomguard, but he didn't save me last time Banish is a useful tool against certain mobs, fear is ok if you're desperate, but mostly you're reliant on good timing of recasting your voidwalker (because oh boy can you not take many hits on your caster self; my last death was due to vw/doomguard both dying and me dying before I got my vw recast through, I went down in seconds). And since voidwalker can't be healed any more, yeah. It's still better than the likes of warrior, mage, shaman, definitely, but I suspect in the past warlock was probably 2nd easiest behind hunter, now druid/rogue are ahead, going by the leaderboards, and priest might well be too (bit hard to tell: 2 100s and all others nowhere!)
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Post by ironmanpaff on Oct 31, 2015 20:09:25 GMT -5
Well I am new to the Ironman Challenge and it seems I picked the one class that seems to have trouble, I selected the class because i could wear any armor that is offered, that was the only thought i had going into this. I selected human because i was knew the starting area well. From what i am seeing, staying alive will be a lot of patients as said in other comments, but i think also a little homework as well, Looking at maps , planning your leveling area and understanding the NPC,s in that area (directions they travel , hits and even the loot they drop), That said i have a lot to experience in the permadeath world and it adds a lot to my enjoyment of the game. Seeing my Character on the challenge board helps as well and the forum adds a sudo guild field, thank you for this and all the work you guys do. Ironmanpaff ( ironman toon)and Paff (Regular toon) on dalaran are both mine.
Thank you for your time
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gopher
Iron Veterans
Always Clumsy !
Posts: 248
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Post by gopher on Jul 2, 2016 17:23:57 GMT -5
My best WoD shaman died at 35 but I had never added that one to the site. Shamans have no emergency button other Earthbind totem to hopefully snare them while you run away... plus no night elf for shadowmeld. Oh they also have a reduced mana pool compared to most casters. 2nd attempt at Shaman for me having only had one 'for real' in the old guild days when it was useful for wipe-prevention. I am rather enjoying the revised play-style of tactically using 'Purge' and also boring mobs with the kiting technique of 'Earthbind Totem/Ghostwolf while flameshock and the searing totem finish them off. However, now that I've mentioned this, I'll run into an add or off a cliff on my next outing Did somebody say 'Mana' - where ?
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Post by Broken Fox on Jul 30, 2016 8:59:22 GMT -5
I lost a 40 soenthing Shaman to that hunt boss in STV that summons 3 panther adds. Kept trying to kill the boss then slow totem/ghost wolf my way out. Reset the fight 3 or 4 times until finally one of them dazed me and RIP. Never cared to level another Shaman cause it was so painfully slow but with the Legion revamp I might give it another shot.
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Asyluun
Iron Veterans
Drunk
Posts: 272
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Post by Asyluun on Aug 2, 2016 20:12:37 GMT -5
I am leveling an enhancement shaman currently level 59.Loving enhance , the new animations sounds etc
My Thoughts:
The amount of damage spells you get now is OP, enhancement shaman rely upon maelstrom as their resource and all their big finishers are based on it.
Rockbiter (your instant main attack) generates 15 maelstrom at 20 you can get a instant Healing Surge which will heal you 50-75% so far no mana issues.
This is the single most important mechanic for Enhancement, you are better off attacking and healing than running if things go south as you need Maelstrom to heal instantly, I am not worrying about my health to much just use healing surge in my rotation.
With your puppies (feral spirits ) generating maelstrom and the passive where your windfury generates Maelstrom, you quickly max out your Maelstrom to use use on your main spells and to heal yourself.
Leveling seems quicker than on my hunter, 59 with /played 1 day 7hours, enhance would make a excellent bloodthirsty as you can grind with no downtime.
Certainly for 1-60 heaps more XP per quest I noted several quests that always gave 4800xp where giving 10000K.
Now outland may be different i suspect I will soon see
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Asyluun
Iron Veterans
Drunk
Posts: 272
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Post by Asyluun on Aug 5, 2016 1:26:39 GMT -5
Well 3/4 through Hellfire and would say Shaman is still good, doing Fel Spirits quest ended up somehow 4 orcs on me and survived ok, although a change of undies where in order.
Currently Level 62, not even 2 days played almost embarrassing the ease although if you stuff up or a glitch you can die.
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