[Pacifist Challenge] One kill?

[Deleted]

Folks... we already went down this road about easing up on the kills. It was decided that we weren't doing it.

[iarnaig]

By the sounds of this discussion, paifist kills and ironman deaths are not comparable. There is no situation where the stats record a false death; a death might be unlucky, but it actually happened. There are situations where stats record "kills" which a pacifist made no contribution to, and under any rule of common sense, did not actually kill anything.

I agree with Brittle that an involuntary unavoidable false kill flag is not worse than an avoidable genuine equipped green item flag (many of us manage just fine to not equip stuff "accidentally").

Not sure how I feel about potentially relaxing the rules, but I can see the points in favour of it, given the avoidable things which are allowed in other challenges. Equally, it feels kinda wrong allowing kills in a pacifist challenge, I'm certainly not for greenflagging people with any kills, but I could go with a yellow flag if someone has a kill but no killing blows (damage isn't a reliable indicator, given some of us have some recorded despite not knowingly doing any damaging quests...).

I just wish Blizz would get the stats a bit more accurate; it'd solve a lot of problems!

Edit: The above post was made while I was typing, think my points still are valid though so not deleting

[brittleiron]

Apr 6, 2016 22:58:57 GMT -5 iarnaig said:

I agree with Brittle that an involuntary unavoidable false kill flag is not worse than an avoidable genuine equipped green item flag (many of us manage just fine to not equip stuff "accidentally").

This is more what I meant as well... there is a huge difference between a false flag kill and right clicking a critter. You have no control over one whereas the other you have control over.

I am not saying we need to allow kills (even 1) I was just pointing out the harsh fact that you can get flagged for a kill completely beyond your control even if you are being careful in the Warlords zones (I imagine the same will be true in Legion as well). I was just thinking about the "shared" kills from a normal player perspective too. If you got credit for a kill but never looted the mob because you didn't know the mob died... Would that special one-time only drop be lost forever? That would be unfortunate if so.

Edit: I have a bad habit of wanting to point out the opposite side of an argument far too often just to encourage discussion both in game and in real life. This was less about insisting that a few kills be allowed and more about pointing out that something completely beyond your control can get you flagged and yet something you have full control over gets a mulligan. And on that note why is having any secondary professions other than first aid a yellow flag? Shouldn't it be a red flag like primary professions or should primary professions be allowed too? (with a yellow flag). Professions (primary or secondary) no longer grant any special perks that would affect Ironman rules so why not either allow them all (yellow flag) or ban them all (red flag)?

[Xeraphia]

Apr 6, 2016 22:45:58 GMT -5 @thejames said:

Folks... we already went down this road about easing up on the kills. It was decided that we weren't doing it.

Only that's not what we are asking... We are not asking to ease up on Pacifist kills. I don't know how to make this particular point clearer.

We are asking that when we do NOT do something and STILL get flagged for it, that we don't get disqualified. It's like having your Ironman stats say "Raid instances entered: 0. Raid boss killed: 1" and you're disqualified for (not) killing a raid boss.

Sure we can ask Blizzard to get their maths straight, but really... who are we kidding At least here, in a smaller, better supervised community, suggestions may actually be taken into consideration.

[Lyssan]

Before we go into full-fledged rule altering mode I thought it would be useful to test these claims about unwarranted kills in your stats.

Here are the results - the test subject was my level 100 NE druid in Tanaan Jungle

For regular mobs (non-shared): if the mob was red (I had aggro) when it died I had 1 kill, if it was gray there was no kill (pretty much the same behavior as in the rest of the game)
For shared mobs (named quest mobs, rares, mini-bosses) the things are more complicated:

- if I stay right next to a shared mob which is engaged in combat but I'm not in combat myself (no aggro) I have 0 kills EVEN if I take AOE damage from the mob(I haven't encountered this but it's possible some AOE damage puts you in combat). Also I could not even loot the mob if I wasn't at least a second in combat.
- if I damage or put some debuf (in my case Faerie Fire) on the mob that puts me in combat I have 1 kill EVEN after Shadowmeld (can't shake aggro - once you are in combat and the mob dies you have a kill)
- if I walk by and get visual aggro that puts me in combat but the mob is killed by somebody else I have 1 kill EVEN after Shadowmeld or running away(same as above)
- if I walk by and get visual aggro that puts me in combat and I run away until the mob resets, the aggro table is wiped so there is no kill when the mob dies


In conclusion to get a kill from a shared mob, the following conditions need to be met:
(1) get aggro (enter combat) with a shared mob by walking by, damaging, debuffing and (I assume) healing a friendly target engaged in combat
(2) the shared mob dies before the aggro resets (by running away, SM, Vanish etc)

Hope this helps.

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2016 10:36:50 GMT -5 Xeraphia said:

Apr 6, 2016 22:45:58 GMT -5 @thejames said:

Folks... we already went down this road about easing up on the kills. It was decided that we weren't doing it.

Only that's not what we are asking... We are not asking to ease up on Pacifist kills. I don't know how to make this particular point clearer.

We are asking that when we do NOT do something and STILL get flagged for it, that we don't get disqualified. It's like having your Ironman stats say "Raid instances entered: 0. Raid boss killed: 1" and you're disqualified for (not) killing a raid boss.

Sure we can ask Blizzard to get their maths straight, but really... who are we kidding At least here, in a smaller, better supervised community, suggestions may actually be taken into consideration.

It's also like dying due to an invisible monster or disconnection or bug where it's out of your control. You have video proof. But that's part of the game... we don't waive the death.

Lyssan's post is very interesting. It sounds like you *can* get a kill with 0 damage done. You get on the mob's aggro table and run. Someone else comes by and kills the mob. You've done 0 damage but you get the kill. Does not sound like a bug to me.

I wouldn't be a surprised if there was a bug happening here but if there is a legitimate method of getting the kill with 0 damage we can't tell legitimate kills vs. bugs, can we? I will *never* open the door up to remove flags even if there was an undoctored video... that would open the floodgates for everyone to submit petitions for every single perceived wrong. This is a hobby. Not a full-time job, so this kind of thing is not on the table.

Bugs are part of the challenge. Get to 100 in World of Warcraft (in whatever state it's in) under the rules of the challenge. If there is a kill for the character it was obtained either legitimately or through a bug. Bugs happen and are part of the game. It certain HURTS when you get so close and lose your challenger (ask Asyluun or any of the other Iron Veterans) but it's part of the game. You take some time to get over it and re-roll armed with the knowledge of how you were killed or disqualified.

It's frustrating to have to go through this again (not necessarily from your particular post), but we've hashed this all out and come to the same conclusion. We have an item in the FAQ that covers deaths due to bugs / glitches... and while this is not a death its the same thing.

When I add FAQ for the different challenges I'll make sure to add kill stats due to bugs because I *really* don't want to do these conversations every few months.

[Ironworgen]

Since the powers that be have decided to award kill statistics to characters that don't even engage in combat, it seems reasonable to look for a better metric.

I like the idea of doing zero damage, and I think that is possibly more limiting than zero kills. Doing ANYTHING that does damage should be disallowed for a Pacifist, even as a means of escape. Doing an AOE for some reason and having a critter (unbeknownst to you) wander into the area of effect and taking damage, or dying, while unfortunate, is certainly the fault of no one other than the player.

There have been claims of players having non-zero damage in their statistics when they swear they didn't do any, but I am as of yet unconvinced that they didn't actually do something that did cause damage. With people paying closer attention, they may actually realize where that damage came from, and in fact it is legitimate, or not. I think it is too early to dismiss the damage done statistic.

I can't help but think of my own Pacifist that racked up some kills by breaking Dwarves out of ice blocks and not realizing until days later that I had recorded some kills. Did I think that was unfair? Maybe, but I also didn't think that should be excused, so I abandoned and rerolled. (took a while to confirm where exactly those kills came from)

With this new change, one could be running along, aggro a mob without even realizing it, which is then killed by another player, and not even realize until days later that you have been eliminated from the challenge, with zero understanding of when or how or why.

I would really like to see proof of someone recording damage in their statistics without actually doing damage. Something caused those numbers to appear. What?
(maybe someone should create an add-on to popup a message when your damage statistic becomes non-zero. track down these mysterious numbers. should be possible I would think)
(did some investigation and don't see a way to get damage info in an add-on or a macro, but my knowledge is limited)

[iarnaig]

eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/earthen-ring/Siochaint/statistic#141 - 11k dmg done by a character which has no damage abilities on the actionbars. A lvl 24 isn't even capable of doing a 2k+ hit normally. www.wowhead.com/list=10916313/eu-earthen-ring-siochaint#4-quests:compare=identical:0+2+1 is the quests I have done (many of which are accountwide credited pet battle ones which were NOT done by that character!); I can't see anything which involves any kind of combat or dmg? Almost all are looting items, exploring caves, or carrying messages, only exceptions are fishing (using a net on a pool) and innoculating moonkin... if anyone can see which of those quests caused me to deal damage I'd be glad to know, since I've made a point of never doing any damage on that character!

[iarnaig]

Seems what I was replying to got deleted but anyway, I've not done PvZ; I never go that far at that kind of lvl on Alliance ironmen. Seems I have 13 dailies completed but I guess those were Darkmoon Faire/Valentine's ones, maybe Hallow's End, going by my schievements indicating which world events I've taken any part at all in - can't think of any of those which involve dmg though.

[Lyssan]

It says you have done 13 daily quests though. I couldn't find any daily on your list. Do you remember which dailies you have done?

[iarnaig]

I don't, no, it was a year or so ago I levelled that character. I'm assuming it was holiday ones (use perfume etc on people for Valentines, perhaps - 13 dailies fits nicely with once a day for a 2 week holiday event!), since achievements indicate I've done some, and there really isn't anything else available at lvl 24. I definitely haven't done PvZ; you can't do the daily without doing the regular quests first and those aren't listed (and in any case, I'd never have gone there at that lvl)

[Xeraphia]

So... all argument set aside, and let's have a beer because we need one: there is a misunderstanding happening here. No one is asking for a change of rules, and I am certainly not asking for my Pacifist to be excused and cleared and for that kill to be waved. I never brought that up. It may be the first time I post here, but I have been an adept of challenges for a couple of years now and I am no stranger to "You messed up, suck it up and reroll". I did suck up. I did reroll. This toon is behind me, it is the dozens and hundreds of next Pacifists I am looking at.
I am not sure where, when or how I got perceived as a whiner asking for a toon clearance, nor why I am constantly met with "We're not changing the rules" when (again) I am not even talking about changing the rules. I know the FAQ, I am well aware about bugs and how they're treated for the challenges, I understand this is not a bug (although I did wrongfully call it a bug earlier), but this is all beside my point, and I am pretty discouraged that I cannot explain myself better than that.
I'm sorry if I'm causing people to repeat themselves and to be frustrated, and I am not trying to argue for argument sake. Really, I'm not, I was just trying to get my point through.

I honestly appreciate the discussion and the help, but it seems we're having two different conversations. Lyssan's little experiments were actually very helpful, because I still understand pretty much nothing to how aggro really works after six years (yes, I know...) Really, all I'm trying to do is understand how to avoid it in my future Pacifists, because I really enjoyed that specific challenge and I want to keep playing it, and this helps a little. What it all boils down to is this: since the metric cannot be changed, a Pacifist must also avoid other players. I guess I will also keep my Pacifists signed up in the challenge from now on -this way at least, I won't level them uselessly should this happen again.

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2016 22:56:18 GMT -5 Xeraphia said:

So... all argument set aside, and let's have a beer because we need one: there is a misunderstanding happening here. ....

I am not sure where, when or how I got perceived as a whiner asking for a toon clearance.

Definitely not calling you or perceive you as a whiner. If you are at BlizzCon or the Well Played Party in June (the Warcraft Movie Meetup) I will absolutely buy you a beer. :-D

[Xeraphia]

I'll hold you to that one day

[ambrozyn]

Well, apparently I spoke too soon. My level 92 pacifist, Sindrys got a shared kill today. I did not have any issues in Draenor, but in Pandaria when I went back to do some dailies. I had the Halfhill quest to cook Mushan stew over the Hozen campfire. As I was doing the quest (cooking), somebody was killing mobs some distance away. When I finished cooking the stew, I noticed something sparkling. Sure enough, it was a lootable mob. I checked my stats and, as other people indicated, had no killing blows or damage done, but 1 kill. This is very discouraging. I think I will go pour myself a glass of wine...or 3...or 4.