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Post by brittleiron on Jul 12, 2018 8:13:07 GMT -5
Discuss. Please no knee jerk reactions of hell yes or hell no... but a real discussion. They would grant a little more damage or survival ability to a challenge that in it's current state is pretty much the most difficult it has ever been. I know folks are hopeful 8.0 is going to suddenly make everything better, but right now unless something drastically changes it won't change enough from what I've seen. To me talents have always represented a basic skill of your class anyways and still are hindered by our lack of stats on gear. On a side note to this... the War Mode in BfA will grant 10% bonus exp while PvP flagged and can only be turned on/off in Stormwind/Orgrimmar. Personally I say if you are insane enough to risk it maybe we should allow it.
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Post by panchiko on Jul 12, 2018 10:29:56 GMT -5
I haven't done ironman since before the scaling patch. I hit 80 on my iron monk the day before the patch hit, and just retired her because I didn't feel like dailying from that point on. Came back a little bit ago just to play greenman. So I'm not very well versed in iron itself. However, I have watched a few streams of ironman, like per0tin on his 60~ warrior and a german guy I forgot the name of on his 55~ druid. So that's the extent of my knowledge. From what I can gather, I ABSOLUTELY agree with allowing talents. Ironman pre-scaling patch used to be a little tedious, but you could round off mobs in well under 10 seconds. I vividly remember oneshotting a level 54 rare at level 55 and being SHOCKED. I was a monk. There was no need for talents, as you were already powerful enough. After patch? I watched a replay of Per0tin playing on his level 64 ish warrior in Zangarmarsh, killing naga for a quest. It took him around 20-30 seconds to kill ONE MOB. Granted, he was a prot warrior, and I know how slow prot warriors play. I played one until I died at 31, thinking I could take on Direglob. (I couldn't, by the way. Thanks Janglur for saying I could ) And I was getting bored on that toon. And it was ALL GREEN GEAR. Then I watched a video of a guy trying to take on some boss orc in the wetlands as a feral druid at level 55. He was being dropped down to 40% health every few hits, and had to sprint away and heal before dishing in as much damage as he could. The whole fight took 45 seconds. Nothing I had ever fought on my iron monk prepatch had ever rivaled that. Not even close. What are talents going to bring to the challenge that will break the game? Literally no talent will make or break a class so that it's so OP it becomes...easy (or something along those lines) to level. I think that talents will break the tedium that's in the nature of the challenge, and allow new abilities to have fun with. The only talent I can think of that is too powerful would be Trailblazer for hunters. Sprinting away without attacking people with Pack + Trailblazer would have you out of everything in the blink of an eye. But even then. Could run into other mobs, could have no way to go. So, in conclusion, yeah. Talents are pretty neat. They just break the tedium and add a little manpower to our very very weak toons. I don't think that's so bad.
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Post by Xezzy on Jul 12, 2018 11:06:55 GMT -5
Technically you 'can' do the challenge without talents, but I am with you 100% that you should be able to choose if you'd like to use talents as part of your challenge run and not be punished for that choice. What about the idea of Talents yellow flagging you instead of red flagging? That way it would allow you to participate in the challenge until the end, but still show that you made a choice that was outside of the scope of the original rules and you would have to live with that. This is a personal challenge right? If your okay with your choice of being flagged then go for it. In this way you can customize the way you play, but show that you deviated from the original rule set. On that note, I also feel that professions should only yellow flag you instead of red flag at this point. Again, prof's are a way to further customize your character for people who are really into that. I don't see a reason to restrict them anymore other then it was the rule of the legacy Iron Man rule set. Heck, wearing your personally crafted green gear would be a neat part of Green Man challenge. Do we really care if you got 200xp from mining a node rather than killing a mob? Yellow flagging would show that you chose to deviate from the original rules, but still made it passed the finish line in the end.
*shrug* my two cents...
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Post by brittleiron on Jul 12, 2018 12:38:17 GMT -5
Professions being banned is an old rule from the days when they granted benefits (extra STA from mining for example) that probably is meaningless at this point.
As for yellow flagging for talents I disagree with yellow tags for any of the challenges anyways.... either you follow the rules of the challenges or you don't.
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Post by 'Ster on Jul 12, 2018 13:05:08 GMT -5
Think we can chase this concept better post 8.0 release when we know what is production and not. About the only thing I'd like considered, as one of the old-timers, is that we keep the title "Ironman" with the same concept as currently laid out - no help, no talents, terrible gear, no pots/elixirs, etc. etc. And create a new title for the expanded concept with talents (or any other changes we make post 8.0). Sort of like today we have BTs, paci's, Greenman, Tins, etc.... That way, those who want to slog thru the challenge as an "Ironman" can do so, and others who want variations to make it doable or more enjoyable, can do that too.
My .02 cents worth.
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Xaya
Community Moderators
Posts: 1,681
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Post by Xaya on Jul 12, 2018 19:52:07 GMT -5
Being another 'old timer', I mostly agree with Ster. So 'ironman' would still not be allowed talents. Some tests were made with talents in Legion for bloodthirsty, which showed it still wasn't enough for them to get to 110, so it would not make a big difference anyway. As I always say with a new xpac, let's wait till it goes live before making a decision
Xayagreen lvl 55 greenman draenai hunter (alive) Wyrmrest Accord Xayabow lvl 88 tinman nightelf hunter Wyrmrest Accord Xayablood lvl 16 bloodthirsty nightelf druid (alive) Wyrmrest Accord Xayamonk lvl 110 tinman draenai monk Wyrmrest Accord Xayapaci lvl 36 pacifist gnome rogue (alive) Wyrmrest Accord
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Post by brittleiron on Jul 12, 2018 20:44:48 GMT -5
As an 'old timer' as well I would say no on talents too, but the challenge is hurting right now and something needs to change.
Lets also not forget that First Aid is going away which means classes without heals are going to have things get even worse. Sure we could buy bandages off the AH from tailors, but considering most of the AH sellers are a bunch of soulless gold hoarders I see no fun in paying 100g per bandage (or more).
I still say the Leaderboards should have been 'retired' when 7.3.5 dropped and a new list created for characters created after that point. Being 65 as a warrior now is near impossible, whereas when I got it before 7.3.5 it was relatively simple. 7.3.5 basically killed anything Ironman had been prior... even Cata wasn't this brutal.
More people seem to be playing green, tin and BT than before while Ironman is slowly dying from the challenge being harder than it really has ever been.
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Asyluun
Iron Veterans
Drunk
Posts: 272
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Post by Asyluun on Jul 12, 2018 22:37:13 GMT -5
I agree getting a normal iron man to max is very hard now not sure if talents will make much of a difference. I suppose my opinion is no talents.
I have to say I had fun with my Greenman equipping quest rewards was a nice change and the extra tmog pieces as well and it felt like pre legion but op as hell
When the max is 120 it will be a daunting challenge for newbies to undertake
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Post by fiveiron on Jul 18, 2018 20:28:16 GMT -5
Tins have talents. It did and does help. You do not have to use health pots, or allow deaths for your tin. That is how you can already play iron-ish with talents. I agree that it is not Iron.
I've done this. It is fun. It still requires attentiveness vs adds, respawns, and other iron hazards.
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Post by brittleiron on Jul 19, 2018 8:02:11 GMT -5
Using an item like Goblin Gliders is not Iron either... but they became accepted. Sure dying to a glitch fall sucks, but so do bugged events, disconnects and other things beyond our control... that is part of the 'joy' of the challenge.
The challenge went from very difficult, to easier, to much easier (pre-7.3.5), to brutally hard and near impossible (7.3.5) and now slightly more near impossible (8.0).
The core premise of the challenge was always... no death, no 'real' gear at it's most base level.
Allowing Mining and/or Herb Garden in WoD became acceptable even though under the original rules that would have been unthinkable... but the challenge evolved. As was allowing exp from follower missions which would have also been unthinkable in the earlier years as it is free risk-free exp... then again so were some dailies (count me in the group glad they nerfed those)... once again the challenge evolved.
Receiving mail from another player was banned, then accepted if you CoD them the value of the gear, then kind of ignored as it really isn't trackable anyways. Changes.. evolution.
Pet battles got abused.... rules changed to account for them.
White weapons in Storm Peaks that had a 'green' stat that granted a bonus damage proc still were allowed as the 5 dmg was deemed not a big deal... of course Blizzard turned those green so they are banned now.
Water walking, heirloom and repair mounts used to be frowned upon as you didn't 'earn' them on that challenger, but came to be accepted.
Speaking of not-Iron: War Mode is allowed under the rules apparently... but it grants bonus exp and better quest rewards (gear). By 'Iron' rules it should be banned for any type of challenger.
Specs even used to be banned until Blizzard forced them upon us... still an evolution of the challenge.
All these things and more were why I posed the question on rethinking talents as a way to keep the challenge fresh considering the fact that since 7.3.5 no one has even come close to 110 starting from 1... sure a hunter made it into the 90's, but hunter has always been the dominant force in Ironman. It is nice to see them knocked down a peg with squishier pets, but I'd imagine they still are the most likely class to reach max level.
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Post by Broken Fox on Jul 19, 2018 9:17:55 GMT -5
Just started a new Rogue. What's the deal with bandages now? Can we learn Tailoring?
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Post by brittleiron on Jul 19, 2018 10:34:03 GMT -5
Nope we can not learn tailoring, but you can pay AH prices for them.
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Post by Broken Fox on Jul 19, 2018 13:14:18 GMT -5
Meh
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Post by Crystalpall on Jul 19, 2018 16:23:30 GMT -5
I'm against, I feel it's wrong.
Edit: the challenge is still doable, it's just harder.
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Post by kargh on Jul 20, 2018 14:32:14 GMT -5
Going to side with Brittle here because I think it should be allowed. Keeping it forbidden because it feels wrong or something like that might be as near towards the spirit of challenge as it can get, but the challenge has to adapt to the changes to stay doable. We've seen in 7.3.5 how hard it could get and the bloodthirsty challenge also adapted to the changes by allowing greens.
cheers
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