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Post by Ironworgen on May 11, 2016 14:45:30 GMT -5
There are only 16 challengers that made it to 100. Shouldn't you see more if its that easy? Most deaths are not because you are in over your head, but because of a mistake or bad decision, imo.
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Post by Ironworgen on May 11, 2016 14:57:53 GMT -5
... but some classes can solo dungeons even if they are below the level of mobs and don't use heirlooms. Of course not all classes can do that, but it just shouldn't be possible unless you overgear and overlevel the dungeon. The higher the character level goes the less this becomes a problem. But the low level zones really need some change, imo. I mean, just look at some of Wannoob's videos. He plays a Monk and solos stuff and he just finished all of the 1-60 5 man content an even killed 4 AQ10 bosses. No idea about his AQ gear, but he didn't even outlevel the dungeons - often bosses were even orange - or use heirlooms at all with veeeeery few exceptions www.youtube.com/user/Wannoob79/videosAnd if this is possible, without overgearing or overleveling, even on only a few classes, something is just wrong. And that's 5 man content, not even solo content. I had read some previous posts about this, but assumed there was some exaggeration, but after watching the first minute of the Lower Blackrock Spire video, I am appalled! Soloing a group of 3 elites at (or above) your level, and a couple of other mobs at the same time, is shocking! I don't care how good your gear is, that should never be possible. I haven't played my regular characters in a long time, and while I knew that things had been nerfed, I never imagined the level of absurd simplicity the game had devolved into. Seems the only answer is to take up the Naked Challenge for any level of difficulty.
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Post by Lyssan on May 11, 2016 17:58:08 GMT -5
I actually don't see a problem at the high level zones regarding leveling. It's the low level zones that are the problem. Leveling in Cataclysm from 80-85 was fine, in Pandaria from 85-90 was fine and in WoD 90-100 was also fine. But the things before that (with the squish now probably at least 1-85 but maybe even 1-90) are just too easy. It's also not just the ironman thing, but some classes can solo dungeons even if they are below the level of mobs and don't use heirlooms. Of course not all classes can do that, but it just shouldn't be possible unless you overgear and overlevel the dungeon. The higher the character level goes the less this becomes a problem. But the low level zones really need some change, imo. I mean, just look at some of Wannoob's videos. He plays a Monk and solos stuff and he just finished all of the 1-60 5 man content an even killed 4 AQ10 bosses. No idea about his AQ gear, but he didn't even outlevel the dungeons - often bosses were even orange - or use heirlooms at all with veeeeery few exceptions www.youtube.com/user/Wannoob79/videosAnd if this is possible, without overgearing or overleveling, even on only a few classes, something is just wrong. And that's 5 man content, not even solo content. We're talking about a skilled player with twink gear (he has 19kHP at level 60). There is 0(zero) chance that anybody can take a quest geared toon at 60 and solo Molten Core. This talk about how ironman is "so easy anybody can do it, but few do it because mistakes and stuff" always rubs me the wrong way. It's like the ones that did it were just lucky. No, the reason so few did it is because it's difficult. The concentration required to not do any (major) mistakes for weeks and months is the hard part. /rant
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Asyluun
Iron Veterans
Drunk
Posts: 272
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Post by Asyluun on May 11, 2016 18:15:27 GMT -5
During the journey of an iron man character to hopefully 100 there will be several things that will kill you.
The key to get to 100 is either being lucky / planning etc on these occasions.
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Post by Ironworgen on May 11, 2016 18:47:22 GMT -5
... This talk about how ironman is "so easy anybody can do it, but few do it because mistakes and stuff" always rubs me the wrong way. It's like the ones that did it were just lucky. No, the reason so few did it is because it's difficult. The concentration required to not do any (major) mistakes for weeks and months is the hard part. /rant No, not lucky, but ... It absolutely is difficult. It requires great concentration and focus. I rarely recall comments about battles that are too difficult, but more about battles I shouldn't have done, or didn't know about, or lag or respawns or something else. Rarely about the difficulty of a mob. How many get too comfortable and lulled into a false sense of safety and end up doing something they regret, and should have known better. It's not luck that succeeds, but great focus, research, patience, and dedication. Only those with a true Iron will.
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Post by marston on May 11, 2016 19:32:25 GMT -5
I actually don't see a problem at the high level zones regarding leveling. It's the low level zones that are the problem. Leveling in Cataclysm from 80-85 was fine, in Pandaria from 85-90 was fine and in WoD 90-100 was also fine. But the things before that (with the squish now probably at least 1-85 but maybe even 1-90) are just too easy. It's also not just the ironman thing, but some classes can solo dungeons even if they are below the level of mobs and don't use heirlooms. Of course not all classes can do that, but it just shouldn't be possible unless you overgear and overlevel the dungeon. The higher the character level goes the less this becomes a problem. But the low level zones really need some change, imo. I mean, just look at some of Wannoob's videos. He plays a Monk and solos stuff and he just finished all of the 1-60 5 man content an even killed 4 AQ10 bosses. No idea about his AQ gear, but he didn't even outlevel the dungeons - often bosses were even orange - or use heirlooms at all with veeeeery few exceptions www.youtube.com/user/Wannoob79/videosAnd if this is possible, without overgearing or overleveling, even on only a few classes, something is just wrong. And that's 5 man content, not even solo content. We're talking about a skilled player with twink gear (he has 19kHP at level 60). There is 0(zero) chance that anybody can take a quest geared toon at 60 and solo Molten Core. This talk about how ironman is "so easy anybody can do it, but few do it because mistakes and stuff" always rubs me the wrong way. It's like the ones that did it were just lucky. No, the reason so few did it is because it's difficult. The concentration required to not do any (major) mistakes for weeks and months is the hard part. /rant Those 19k are true for the AQ video (probably because of heirlooms), but if you look at his other videos from, for example, LBRS, Zul'farrak or even Ragefire, he isn't using anything except gear that he got from quests or bosses in dungeons. There are very few exceptions were the boss was so hard that he had to equip heirlooms, but they exist. I am also not saying the Ironman challenge itself is easy, it's not. Heck, I myself haven't even reached Outland on any iron so far, but if we as skilled players who played the game for years, are able to beat normal enemies with gear without any bonus stats and without even choosing a spec without that many problems with maybe only 1-3 levels of difference (with very few exceptions in both way, hunter being able to even kill some elite mobs and warrior's having problem with mobs 5+ level below their own), I just think the overall game is just too easy. I mean, we have heavy restrictions, but if we can actually play normally for the most part except for the really high level regions, something is just off. Edit: Or to be a bit more precise, if you know what you are doing and have played the game for a long time, you definitly can do things a normal or new player can't do. Even back in Vanilla you could solo dungeons, but only because they were 10-20 levels below your level. At some point it just gets ridiculous.
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Post by iarnaig on May 11, 2016 20:09:08 GMT -5
Edit: Or to be a bit more precise, if you know what you are doing and have played the game for a long time, you definitly can do things a normal or new player can't do. Even back in Vanilla you could solo dungeons, but only because they were 10-20 levels below your level. At some point it just gets ridiculous. Even in vanilla, you could do things closer to your lvl than that, BUT only in certain circumstances. the two things I recall were: when my hunter learned feign death at lvl 30 I wandered into the Stockade to try it out, expecting to have to use it and then run away... I actually cleared most the dungeon (very slowly!). Think I didn't finish it; I know I went so slowly that I had respawns behind me, but still, I got far further than I expected. Other example is as a 60 rogue I soloed the dark keeper/vault in BRD to get a fire res enchant (which I never used in the end lol, it's still sitting in my bank as a memory!), now that was far more about stealthing around stuff than killing stuff (aside from the keeper himself) but still! That said, those stuck in my memory purely because they were so unusual and challenging; compared with my dungeon challenge attempts a while back where I was soloing green dungeons as a warlock (not even a tank class or hunter) and yeah. I've felt for some time that the levelling experience is just a terrible introduction to WoW for new players (who's going to engage with something that's so faceroll and boring?), as well as being such a letdown for us older players who enjoyed it; I'm taking the comments in that interview as a cause for hope that things might change soon. Slower levelling, not outlevelling questlines because I dared to set foot in a single dungeon or take a gathering profession, and actually feeling like I might die if I do too much would make it so much more rewarding. On alpha I ran into some mobs that hit like trucks and almost killed me (Disc priest, I have TONS of survivability by default, still had to blow cds on these), not even flagged elite - that was great (admittedly I gave feedback that they'd be better flagged elite as they were crazy lol), it'd be nice to see some challenge in lower level levelling too. I don't mind people who want to blast through it in their heirooms doing so, but if I choose to unequip those heirlooms, I'd like to be going at a reasonable speed and difficulty level! And if it ends up breaking ironman, well hey, ironman was created as a response to the lack of challenge or fun in levelling - I'd be delighted to be incapable of getting past lvl 30 if it meant the overall game was fixed (And the compulsory spec means that's unlikely anyway)
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